Front Bumper damaged

[andyweb]

Other cars front tire shredded when impacting my RHS front bumper

Determining Liability.
I approached a 4 ways stop. I was the first car to reach the white line marker for the stop sign. I saw a driver to the right of me approaching a second or two after I had stopped. I waited till they came to a complete halt and then I entered the intersection (heading straight through). I then saw to the right in my field of vision that same vehicle heading straight into my path. I braked immediately and the other vehicle impacted me from the right and took my front bumper off and in the process sheered their driver side tire. The was a small scratch to RHS front light but no damage to front grill or radiator. Other drivers side door was also buckled.
There is paint transfer on my front bumper from the other vehicle.
Police officer stated that I contributed to the accident?

[mchenrysoftware]

more details required...what is the intersection? (so we can find on google maps and see distances, etc)
And which way were you heading and which way were they headed prior to impact?
The fact you could stop and they sheared across your front shows they were probably going faster than you at impact (and/or didn't brake)
why?
The distance traveled from stop bar to impact for both vehicles is important.
Not sure why the police say you contributed...but probably because they seemed to have higher speed so police assumed they were in the intersection before you.
What story is the other side saying?
any police report/diagram?

[andyweb]

Thanks for the response Brian, I can present you with all that info.
After the impact, the driver said 'she did not see me' and apologized. We had at least 20 minutes until the State Trooper arrived so we had plenty of time to chat. She said that because she is short and sits so low down in her SUV that possibly her side mirror obscured her vision.
I am actually a paralegal for bodily injury claims and was extremely confident that I had done no wrong - and with a perfect driving record for the past 10 years in this country I thought that would have worked in my favor.
My insurance company took a recorded statement from the other driver who stated 'She claims she didn’t know if you were at the stop sign first or not but stated you may have been.'

The attending officer did not include my statement in the police report, but stated that we arrived simultaneous - which is contrary to my statement that I arrived first and waited a couple of seconds for her to arrive and the come to a complete halt.

[YnotBloom]

I'm coming at this from a Retired Cop position, not nessesarily with my Recon Brain. Cops at such crashes lean that way anyway, due to the time limits they often are stuck with by the nature of the job, or their supervisors.

First, I'm sort of leaning with Mchenry on why the Officer gave you contributory elements. Did they say what specifically you did to contribute? If I had to put that in my report, I had to specify what - not just say they should have avoided it anyway. What the other driver said to the Officer would be interesting. Until that may arise, let's assume you are the good guy here.

You stop. Then the other driver stops at your right. Then you pull forward. Then the other driver hits you. That should be pretty "cut and dry" for most traffic cops, assuming that is pretty much it.

In Wisconsin, it's essentially "First come - First served" at an All-Way or Uncontrolled 4-Way. The first driver to stop has Right-of-Way yielded to them by subsequent arriving drivers. If it is a tie (and that can cover a lot since it is sometimes a perspective thing) that means drivers yield Right of Way to their right. (a point of definition here: Right-of-Way in Wisconsin is something given from one driver to another. It is not owned, or taken by a driver). In street talk, however, it is commonly referred to "(I, they, he, she, etc) had/has the Right-of-Way." This is also sometimes complicated by the tradition of nice Wisconnie drivers to "waive em on through!"

(for a good laugh - look up on YouTube Charlie Berens and look for his Midwest Driving School videos! Here is the summer one: https://youtu.be/EGrIz9BSnm8
timestamp 1:30 if you are in a hurry)

Thus if the Officer (if they had been a fellow cheesehead) was convinced it was a tie, YOU should have been cited.

If they thought you were there first, then the other driver should be cited.

Did the Officer think you waited too long before moving out? That should not negate your "first rights" by arriving first unless it was a LONG wait. That should be prudent defensive driving. If you were too cautious, then its a bit of a stretch, but that could be their angle. With a fast move out by the other driver, this would have me thinking they got impatient waiting and went for it.

Any other details you can share?

Sincerely yours, and His,
Anthony Bloom
Green Bay PD - Ret.

PS:
This Right-of-Way thing is also sometimes complicated "up nort here, by golly" by the tradition of nice Wisconnie drivers to "just waive em on through!"
(for a good laugh - look up on YouTube Charlie Berens and look for his Midwest Driving School videos! Here is the summer one: https://youtu.be/EGrIz9BSnm8
timestamp 1:30 if you are in a hurry)

[andyweb]

Thanks for your Anthony. I am an extremely defensive driver. Back in Australia I was a courier who drove for years, again with an unblemished record. Too many distracted drivers in this country so I am always on high alert. I think the officer thought I may have appeared 'cocky' when I told him the other driver had apologized for hitting me and that it was pretty straight forward. I argued with him after he cited me and the other driver was shocked that I was blamed.

[mchenrysoftware]

CORRECTION:
From the overhead it appears that prior to impact THE OTHER VEHICLE traveled approx 50 feet South.
YOU TRAVELED approx 20 feet West??
with both starting from a stopped position that would mean THEY were in the intersection well before YOU were?
In most states the responsibility is on the 2nd person to enter the intersection which generally is defined by the stop bars.
sorry but think you are at fault due to distances each vehicle traveled.
the other vehicle accelerated a LOT or you simply didn't notice they stopped and proceeded BEFORE you did.

as a comparison: IF it was 20 feet for both of you then assuming you both accelerated at the same time, it would be a draw: both started at same time.
however they traveled 10-20 feet BEFORE you started and so then your 20 feet was AFTER they entered the intersection.
due to acceleration rates and time to travel 20 feet after accelerating for 20 feet it's not simply a straight comparison.
However unless they left skid marks of acceleration for them to travel 50 feet in the same time as you traveled 20 feet is a stretch.
Sorry for the bad news.

reece mill and red hill dist.png (168.44 KiB) Viewed 17684 times

[andyweb]

Hi Brian, thanks for your response. My vehicle had stopped (I braked as soon as I saw the other vehicle approach). She did not run a stop sign as I first waited for her to come to a complete halt before entering the intersection. I followed the first car rule as she was a couple of seconds behind coming to the stop white line marker. If I had braked possibly a millisecond quicker I believe she would have not have impacted me. After impact I exited my vehicle and confronted her as to why she didn't see me first - she did not recall details of the accident.
I don't think there was any other conclusion that she hit me, as if I hit her, my front bumper would have been crushed and not peeled of.

[mchenrysoftware]

An interesting word problem! The following is simply a demonstration of the many items needed to be considered when looking at a crash like yours:

The puzzle is find the solution to the following:

• For 50 feet and with her with no braking her speed would be approx 14 mph and it would take approx 4.9 seconds
  • and given her need to hit you, pass far enough beyond the initial impact to shred her tire then she was probably at or near 10-14 mph
  2 main equations
  • See this physics page for equations for time/distance/etc at constant acceleration.

Assuming approx acceleration of 0.13 Gs for her
same for you but also some range of braking for you and approximation of Perception/reaction time for you

So for you, since you say you were stopped at impact, you'd have constraints of

1. Total travel approx 25 feet
2. As starting value use 4.9 seconds to match arrival time at impact (then calc with more and less time)
3. Accelerating for T1 seconds at 0.13 Gs (need to also test a range of acceleration)
4. Approximate your Perception/Reaction time to realize you have to brake (1.5- 2.5 seconds?)
5. Your deceleration for T2 seconds at 0.3-0.5 Gs? or so to stop at approximate point of impact.
6. Which also means T1= 4.9 - T2
   • or more than 4.9 seconds since if you started before her your total time would be more than 4.9 seconds)

could make it into an interesting word problem (I love word problems but see below for the Far Side's version of Hell's library!)

If i posted up a quick demonstration folks would then point out the many permutations:

• Ranges of accel/decell ,
• Ranges of Perception/Reaction, etc.
• Question on did the other driver brake and how much and how much would it change the arrival time?
• Google maps shows a down slope for the travel of the other driver: how much would it change arrival time/speed?

Very interesting exercise

MAIN POINT: In reconsideration of you being stopped at the point of impact (and for how long?) that might explain how although you traveled less distance the fact you had time to accelerate and then decelerate to a stop BEFORE the impact indicates you could have, as you say, been in the intersection before her and for a longer time than her.